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Author Topic: So it looks like I need a replacement/rebuild on a 103  (Read 1069 times)
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arcticdude
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« on: May 13, 2018, 06:59:59 PM »

As the title states, it looks like my 103 is toast.  It won't build any real oil pressure (5psi max).  What's the collective say about options?  A reman from the moco?  Rebuild what I've got?  Since this engine is stock, what upgrades would you do?  I don't need any real killer of an engine, the stock one was doing ok.  IK would always welcome at least a little more power, but since we tend to ride longer distances when we go, having power coming on above 3500 rpm is all but useless for us.  We just never see enough rpm to warrant having that kind of build.  Longevity would be paramount.

As a history, the engine got run without oil.  We checked it 2 rides ago; oil level fine; put less that 100 miles on it and it was at 0 pressure with lots of noise.  Now no oil on the stick.  Did an oil/filter change just to make sure the level was right and now no pressure with adequate oil level.

All thoughts are appreciated.
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Twolanerider
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2018, 07:21:01 PM »

Hate to read this.  Sorry the hassle it will be.  Even though it's at least mostly irrelevant after the fact can't help but ask where the oil loss was?


Don't take this as gospel but I believe it's the case that the old Harley reman program is no more.  Was first farmed out to S&S then, I think this is right, Harley stopped handling it altogether.  Not sure if S&S is doing anything directly with customers as have just never had a reason to find out.

S&S does sell several aftermarket variants of the TC engine.  None of those are what one might consider inexpensive options though.  The Jim's engines have a poor reputation.  Wouldn't do that.  Harley offers a short block in the P&A catalog.  Trusting Harley's bottom ends wouldn't be my first choice though.

So long as your cases aren't ruined I think my first reaction to a lost engine would be to build what I had.  Split them.  Buy an S&S crank if mine was ruined or send mine out if not.  Then build to the riding style of your choice.

Just my 2 cents....
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Posty McPosterson
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2018, 08:24:10 PM »

Wow that completely sucks. I hear ya on the riding style. Im never above 3,500 either. I guess Id find out whats salvageable and decide from there. Id likely go with gear drive cams as an upgrade. With a 12 year old bike Id be concerned about budget unless you intend it to your last also.  

PS, I thought the MoCo discontinued their engine remanufacturing service.
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arcticdude
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 06:51:07 AM »

As of last night, per the moco website, they are listing a rebuild service for all the twin cams (though none of the SE engine are listed specifically).  So it appears to be a possible option.

That's the really frustrating thing about what's occurred- there's no indication of oil loss. I'm assuming it went out the tailpipes, but have not yet pulled plugs to verify that.  But there's no apparent leak. Due to life getting in the way, we've been unable to take any of our longer rides over the last several years, so when we get the chance there's a relatively decent (for the area) 45-50 mile loop we take a quick ride on. I had checked the level at the start of the previous ride a couple of months ago and it was fine. This ride we were only 1/3 of the way into it, when everything started going to hell. Stopped in a parking lot of a gas station for a bathroom break. Nothing under the bike to indicate a leak. Nothing coming out of the air cleaner to indicate an issue there. But no oil pressure and nothing on the dipstick. The primary level was fine, but I have not yet looked at the transmission level. But I didn't think one of these would push engine oil to the trans.

Sad part is that it's probably going to cost what the bike would be worth if the engine were in good shape. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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J-Carr
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 07:45:31 AM »

For what its worth, my dealer has a pretty good reputation for building engines. When I discussed the reman program they said theyd be happy to do it (you had to have the dealer remove ship and reinstall the engine) but they said it would be significantly less expensive to rebuild locally and would have the option to pick and choose parts and manufacturer. I plan on doing that soon as Nemo has 100k. At any rate, Id check around to a local shop and ask for recommendations for local guys over at the big house and hdforums. I dont think Id do the Harley send back program if it really does still exist.
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 11:51:04 AM »

Man that's tough, sorry to read this.  Might try a local indie shop, if you know of one with a good reputation and is willing to back their work. Friend of mine is having a non CVO 103 rebuilt now at a local indie.  Noticed about a year and a half ago that it was burning oil.  He said then it was about 1 quart per 2-3 tanks.  Also had a small oil leak.  Did not want to get it fixed because when he checked around it was more $$$$s than he wanted to spend on a 2010 Ultra.  He let it go too far, not enough compression to crank anymore.  Indie is taking the motor down to see what is involved, am figuring his is major damage.

Had a motor swap in 2016 on my 2010 SE Ultra.  Was covered by insurance, hit a rock (or it hit me) in the road.  Got a new motor, think it was almost $8k, done by the dealer. If I remember right the reman program was not offered then, I would not have accepted anyway it since was an insurance claim.  Otherwise would have considered it.

Good luck.
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Twolanerider
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 12:42:46 PM »

12,000 mile engine on eBay for $3700 shipped with a warranty.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/302708275909

It's the only correct generation and silver 103 I found.  Even doing the labor yourself it'd hard to spend any less doing a complete rebuild if you're splitting the cases.
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arcticdude
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 06:24:18 PM »

That is a pretty good find.  I don't know whether the 60d warranty means much, but at least it is something.  The motor sounds like it's at least had cams done, what are your thoughts that a gear drive would have been done at the same time?  I don't remember what changes were made between 03 and 06 in these.  Does anybody remember?

I will go by the 2 local dealers, but I'm not sure what I'll find.  The one a didn't really previously use has historically had higher prices than retail and I know nothing of their shop.  The other that I did use a lot (buying parts and such) was sold several years ago and at that time essentially told all the old HOG members to get out as they didn't want them anymore.  They were looking only for new members/people.  Strange way to start a business, alienating all your old loyal customers.

There is a third dealer about 90 miles south that we bought from, but they've sold as well and we haven't been in there in a while.  So I don't know what's going to be found there.  The service manager was a pretty straight shooter back then, but he's not there anymore.  Totally new crew.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 06:27:52 PM by arcticdude » Logged
Twolanerider
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My Ride 4:bought an Indian (hat)
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 06:30:21 PM »

That is a pretty good find.  I don't know whether the 60d warranty means much, but at least it is something.  The motor sounds like it's at least had cams done, what are your thoughts that a gear drive would have been done at the same time?  I don't remember what changes were made between 03 and 06 in these.  Does anybody remember?

I will go by the 2 local dealers, but I'm not sure what I'll find.  The one a didn't really previously use has historically had higher prices than retail and I know nothing of their shop.  The other that I did use a lot (buying parts and such) was sold several years ago and at that time essentially told all the old HOG members to get out as they didn't want them anymore.  They were looking only for new members/people.  Strange way to start a business, alienating all your old loyal customers.

There is a third dealer about 90 miles south that we bought from, but they've sold as well and we haven't been in there in a while.  So I don't know what's going to be found there.  The service manager was a pretty straight shooter back then.

If you can get the motor swap done in that amount of time at least you know the motor isn't DOA.  If it's not it's likely good for a long time. That being so the warranty would mean something; at least to me.

A 2003 engine is actually a good thing.  Still has the Timken bearing in the left side.  That changed the next year and is significant to have on your side.

No way to know whether someone might have changed to gear drive when they swapped cams.  It's a significant extra expense.  Only way to know is to pull the cam cover and look.  That is easy though.  Also very worthwhile to do when you don't know.  Miles are still low enough that no worries yet about cam tensioners failing. So you could pull the cover and put in fresh chain tensioners and inner bearings for cheap (if needed) then not have to worry about it for a long time.
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arcticdude
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 06:47:11 PM »

That's great info.  Thanks, Don.  I appreciate your help.
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arcticdude
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 02:30:23 PM »

To give the final on this story, the rear inner cam bearing failed, took out the oil pump and trashed the engine.  I put in an SE cam plate maybe 5000 miles before, maybe longer.  The inner cam bearings appear to do nothing more than support the inner end of the camshafts and are only slip fit; unlike the outer bearings, which are press fit.  I don't remember having any issues putting the cams/pump assembly back in place, but it's been several years (none of which have been kind to my memory).  Anybody have any thoughts about why the inner bearing would fail?

I ended up getting a new longblock.  After looking a the various options, while more expensive, this comes with a 1 yr warranty and has the original motor serial number on it.  So for $2K (less labor to swap out a used engine), I'm not having to worry about another engine issue for a while and don't have to worry about somebody giving me crap over not having the exact paperwork they think I need to prove I bought the used engine legally.
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Posty McPosterson
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 02:37:02 PM »

Sounds like a great solution. And you get to recover a good portion of the season. Is there any value in your motor for someone looking to rebuild it?
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Twolanerider
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My Ride 4:bought an Indian (hat)
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2018, 04:16:29 PM »

Cam bearings are a compression fit in the block but, yeap, slip or clearance on the cam.  Just keep everything straight. 

There are better bearings than what Harley offered stock for those.  Caged bearings that rarely fail.  Harley has (finally) started using these better bearings the last few years as stock parts.  Worth making sure what bearing is in the new long block too.  If it's not the better bearings I'd pull the cams and change them before the engine ever met the bike.

How about pulling oil pan, oil cooler, etc for a thorough clean?  Just to make sure no debris from the failure immediately damages the new engine.
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arcticdude
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2018, 04:47:38 PM »

Since the crank was scored in the old motor and shavings were found throughout, there's essentially no core value to the old engine.  Also, since it's coming in with the same vin as the original, the left case had to be sent back to the factory.

Was told the new engine would have all the upgrades that were done through the years.  They did replace the oil pan, but I forgot to ask about the oil cooler.  I'll see about that tomorrow.

Thanks for the insight and reminders of stuff to check on.
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iski
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My Ride 1:2002 FLHRCI Road King Classic - Vivid Black - Traded

My Ride 2:2007 FLHTCUSE2 Screamin' Eagle Ultra - Light Candy Cherry and Black Ice - Traded

My Ride 3:2010 FLHTCUSE5 Screamin' Eagle Ultra - Crimson Mist Black/Dark Slate - Traded

My Ride 4:2017 FLHTKSE CVO Limited - Black Garnet & Electric Red Pearl w/Carbon Dust
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2018, 05:29:41 PM »

Good decision.  Will be back riding soon.  Thumbs Up
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